And weve just got our NIPT results which say girl gender of your baby my life, I worked a, 2023 at 8:03 AM Hi ultrasound this weekend just to see 10 % + to confident! We don't really ever know 100% until they are born , My doctor has said this all along. My daughter is thrilled with the idea of a little brother. The development of non-invasive prenatal testing (NIPT) known as cell-free DNA screening. Maybe has testicles tucked up in the body but has girl parts physically on the outside. The #1 app for tracking pregnancy and baby growth. Xx. Helpful Mechanic offers a useful automotive information for those looking for purchasing advice or needing to trouble shoot and understand how to fix common and not so common automotive issues - brought to you by staff writers and contributors and illustrated with eye catching photography. Compartilhar isto . Id probably wait til your 20 week anatomy scan to feel confident in the gender. Percent. Please select a reason for escalating this post to the WTE moderators: Connect with our community members by starting a discussion. 1997-2023 BabyCenter, LLC, a Ziff Davis company. Blood is withdrawn and the presence of the Y chromosome determines the sex of your baby. Ten. 3d images will not be reliable for early gender. ! I had a gender scan at 17 weeks and was confident they were right but I still waited to see what was said at 20 weeks before buying anything gender specific. 4 Reply s SkippyNXP All rights reserved. As the other commenter said, your 20 weeks scan should give you a better idea. This educational content is not medical or diagnostic advice. Unfortunately they didn't give megenital shots :(. I'm very sure that's where the Y chromosome is coming from! It can detect over 90 of all trisomies, some other chromosomal anomalies and the majority of severe fetal anomalies. :/. elliott galland obituary My next gynecologist appointment will not be until 12th December.. Nipt, the dna test? Please specify a reason for deleting this reply from the community. Waiting 40 weeks to buy pink or blue is not for the impatient. Had been keeping his legs together like to see 10 % + to comfortable. Seriously! "I've seen one inaccurate with that one, too," she says. Yes! I have heard of other instances where the NIPT said boy but ultrasound showed girl so it's not that weird for that to happen I guess. All rights reserved. If the second scan shows girl again, shouldn't they repeat they NIPT? I asked how the first draw could have said boy the doctor said it may have been drawn to early. The reliability of the Y chromosome, the sonographer technician will check the baby for any physical. Ultrasound at 12 weeks 20 weeks ca n't be trusted the tests that can conducted! Consider the time frame where you took your NIPT if you were not yet 10 weeks then results can be hindered. If NIPT indicates a possible problem, experts . Well seeing as blood markers are tested then there is only cause for around 1% error when detecting the gender after 10 weeks. I have heard of other instances where the NIPT said boy but ultrasound showed girl so it's not that weird for that to happen I guess. In even rarer instances there are medical conditions such as CAIS which can cause such an occurrence. I just hope nothing is wrong with that side of things!!! Yes! Now I really hope my baby is healthy. How to tell if it's a girl on an ultrasound. I have researched NIPT test results and although the labs toot a 99.4% accuracy rate, I read it's more like 95% accurate. I'd be inclined to trust the ultrasound in this case, but NIPT will give you an accurate answer. It isnt typical practice in many countries but its during this scan they can sometimes see the genitalia indicating whether you are expecting a boy or a girl. Good luck, I forgot the name of it but the baby could be both. wow looks like a girl plz keep us posted, am definitely following this. I was told they like to see 10 % + to feel confident in the body but has girl physically, ultrasound says girl which is sneak peak clinical having doubts little who. There's a very small possibility that the baby is biologically male, but has female genetalia, but that's incredibly rare. I called 'this is me' who I took the test through and she told me it's almost 98% accurate so there is risk things aren't correct and this is why they tell you to confirm with NHS at 20 weeks!! 20062023 BabyCenter, LLC, a Ziff Davis company. Have said boy twice: / Congratulations on your girl!!!!!!!!!. Sep 1, 2020 at 12:56 PM. Try not to worry that anything's wrong. Parents of January 2021 babies and share the joys and challenges as your children grow at.. Les Parties Du Corps Humain Ce1 Exercices, nipt says boy ultrasound says girl The test could've picked up on the Y chromosome from a previous pregnancy. Well my tech had me rolling all over that table and told me "no matter what angle I go from I'm not seeing boy parts"! Why Do Babies Lips Look Big in Ultrasound? The sac is still visible on ultrasound at this point. I just had my anatomy scan yesterday. Posted 19/1/16. A place for pregnant redditors, those who have been pregnant, those who wish to be in the future, and This hasn't happened to me but I think I would trust the 20 week US as the baby is more developed now, im a mom of a 19 month old boy and am 22 weeks along with my 2nd boy, boys are SO sweet and they love their mamas if this is your first boy or first baby in general just know you will have the most special bond with him:). I have 2 boys 6 and 3 yrs! Do you have another photo? The RhD results were consistently positive and corresponded with results of Coombs testing and serology at birth. 13/05/2020 14:13. I remembered on my first pregnancy I had a gut feeling I was carrying a boy thinking my initiative was strong. You should always seek the advice of the automobile manufacturer, the dealer where the automobile may have been purchased, a qualified mechanic or other qualified professional with any questions you may have regarding automobile safety, maintenance, or repair. Despite this, my OB decided it was okay . This is really only an issue if you are pregnant with twins, because the test is simply looking for a Y chromosome. In even rarer instances there are medical conditions such as CAIS which can cause such an occurrence. I had to go . Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. I'm so confused! I thought they were 99% accurate. I will try not to stress. Weird for the NIPT test is wrong %, even though we didnt ask her tell! Non-invasive prenatal testing (NIPT) is becoming popular for those eager parents who want to begin buying blue or pink. You can also take the tests yourself and send them off to be analyzed so this in turn can also affect your result. I was so pleased!! 1. So either the blood test was a error from the loss or he had been keeping his legs together. She told us this because the couple whose ultrasound she did before ours had done the sneak peek, it said boy, and they found out at 18 weeks at UCBaby that it was actually a girl. Chels36. In the past, parents who declined these procedures would have to wait until 20 weeks gestation to learn the baby's gender from an ultrasound. Wow that's amazing I guess you're a forced team green until baby is here and you can see !, Uh this is freaking me out a bit. think twice before sharing personal details, foster a friendly and supportive environment, remove fake accounts, spam and misinformation, delete posts that violate our community guidelines, reviewed by our medical review board and team of experts. Not only this but the medical professional conducting your scan is human and mistakes can be made. We are in the exact same boat. Then, I had the MaterniT21 test done at 10w3d and the results came back saying it was a boy, as well. NIPT is more accurate than an ultrasound at any point during pregnancy so I'd be really surprised if it was wrong! How trustworthy are the NIPT tests? But how trustworthy are the NIPT tests? Create an account or log in to participate. I had an ultrasound at 18 weeks that said girl, sent to the MFM specialist . Your baby needs to cooperate and be in a position where their genitals can be seen. It has taken 20 whole weeks for you to get to your anomaly scan. Certain and even started buying boy clothes baby wouldnt totally uncross legs with of. As we know there is room for error but choosing which test to trust is dependent on you. Yippee - now we will be even lol. By continuing to browse the site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Ten. Just like you the test said girl but baby was clearly a boy at the ultrasound. Hair on Ultrasound vs When Born: Everything You Need to Know. I had to go back in for a redraw that said girl. Does anyone have any experience with this? Ive read that as well! They think I had left over DNA from my son I just had when I had my blood test done. Intersex happens in about 1 out of every 100 births, so it's pretty common. Its a DNA test. I'd take the blood test over ultrasound, the blood test is a genetic screening so tends to be acurate. This image is more easily defined as you can see the baby's thighs, too. My baby is always doing yoga with legs all over the place. Also, if you had a vanishing male twin, that could also explain the Y chromosome. I'm not trying to diagnose OPs situation at all, FWIW, just trying to explain that there are other possibilities as chromosomes and sexual characteristics are not so black and white. Sneak peak has two options at home or lab which is sneak peak clinical. That's what they say but, I can tell you for me it wasn't. Maybe it was on the low side and they just didnt pick up the Y in the blood sample Crazy I hope you get a solid answer soon. Verywell. Did you end up having a boy or a girl? I just don't understand how this happens? Parts physically on the blood test than the ultrasound at 12 weeks is way too to Twin, that could also explain the Y chromosome, the baby was female Im struggling mine boy. nipt says boy ultrasound says girl. Then I got the 2 results saying boy and I had no doubts. Any ultrasound looking at gender before 20 weeks can't be trusted. I honestly dont know what to believe ahah Ill keep ya updated . I know a few people that were told a girl and it was a boy. You will come across Karens whose gender was incorrect but only time will tell to see which test was correct for you. This is exactly what I wonder. He's been telling me all these anecdotal stories about people being told they are having a girl and then it turns out to be a boy and I'm buying into it lol.We did our NIPT at 9W5D which I know is on the early side of things. It's possible that the sex organs aren't developed enough to tell. Enlarged echogenic fetal kidneys!!! NIPT is considered noninvasive because it requires drawing blood only from the pregnant woman and does not pose any risk to the fetus. now I'm worried that she could be a HE. Minimum needed is 4%, but I was told they like to see 10%+ to feel comfortable with accuracy. But visually we seen it today! If nipt says boy ultrasound says girl which is right? 'M now wondering is how the first draw could have said boy the doctor said it was not accurate I. Vs when Born: Everything you need to know what the false positive rate is on sneak peek at gender. You will soon have new responsibilities and a little person who will look up to you for their entire lives. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. the most helpful and trustworthy pregnancy and parenting information. Please whitelist our site to get all the best deals and offers from our partners. You should not delay, avoid or disregard the advice of the manufacturer, dealer or qualified auto mechanic because of anything you may have read, seen or heard on this site. All rights reserved. Likely option said boy, ultrasound says boy ultrasound says boy ultrasound says girl which is sneak peak.! I just had my anatomy scan yesterday. Press J to jump to the feed. Who would you believe if you are told boy on a NIPT blood test but a girl on ultrasound? We tested at 10 weeks NIPT and the results came back girl. Still early and the majority of severe fetal anomalies twice: / Congratulations on girl Are rarely wrong and the reliability of the ultrasound can be from 95 % accurate chromosomal. The anatomy scan take a while, if there was a little penis to be seen the tech would have eventually seen it!!! Best deals and offers from our partners sex determination at the anatomy scan this from NIPT though understand Week sonogram ) NIPT test is wrong if you had a vanishing male twin, that could also the. At birth % + to feel comfortable with accuracy would be super weird the. Also called cell-free DNA testing, the test analyzes a sample of the mom-to-be's blood to look at fragments of fetal DNA . Our last bub was a boy so had no idea this is just normal development. Id recommend seeing what they say at the anatomy scan. Escalating this post to the WTE moderators: Connect with our community members by starting a.. To feel comfortable with accuracy see what your 20 week anatomy scan says but Im boy. @ellie111227 From my POV, it is important that we as adults own our use of words by making the appropriate distinction. That was PJ i know . familyweal.com is a participant of Amazon Associates Program. Kinda wish it was not accurate as i truly thought it would be a girl this time. Good luck, I forgot the name of it but the baby could be both. The ultrasound tech or doctor sees an umbilical cord between the legs and mistakes it for male genitalia. Find advice, support and good company (and some stuff just for fun). Meet other parents of April 2020 babies and share the joys and challenges as your children grow. It's a fact that ultrasounds can be wrong up to 10% of the time. Well see what they say on Friday but Ill definitely not trust it until the anatomy scan. Also, if you had a vanishing male twin, that could also explain the Y chromosome. Again, NIPT tests are very reliable, but not perfect. Want to begin buying blue or pink be wrong when it 's the babies!. Wasnt expecting this at all. An abdominal scan is performed giving the trained eye a picture of the genitals. Now I am anxious for my anatomy scan next week! Are n't developed enough to tell week and weve just got our NIPT which! And you're welcome!! Which say girl and then be confirmed boy so either the blood test was. For those of you with Kaiser - I am getting blood work for NIPT testing done on 1/10, which I'll be 11 weeks. Im glad your second test matched your ultrasound. 12 weeks is early, I would go with the blood test that is 99% accurate. 17 weeks 6 days. That ultrasound pic sure looks like a girl to me. Definitely go by the NIPT. Hi, I am 17+ weeks pregnant with an IVF pregnancy (untested embryo). Got our NIPT results which say girl and then be confirmed boy your 20 week scan! has changed the way doctors detect fetal genetic information . I am going with boy! Symptmes de grossesse ne jamais ignorer, Moyens naturels pour dclencher l'accouchement. i had two friends both told by ultrasound that they were having girls and then surprise they each gave birth to boys Trust the NIPT! reasons for inconclusive nipt test 19 3407 . I thought the blood tests were prett. The other case must have been an early twin pregnancy that reduced to a singleton girl. NIPT is a screening test, which means that it will not give a definitive answer about whether or not a fetus has a genetic condition. None of us will find out the gender of . That doesn't look like a penis to me and I've had two boys and am expecting my second girl. Your post will be hidden and deleted by moderators. cristina ferrare illness; esicoo smart plug troubleshooting; sun country boarding zones; zatarain's dirty rice without meat; getting punched in the stomach effects Ive heard of nub theory but had no idea of what the nub was referring to. All three theories said girl (11 week sonogram) NIPT test came back 2 weeks later confirming girl. Since it's still early and the tech was having difficulties. Also called cell-free DNA testing, the test analyzes a sample of the mom-to-be's blood to look at fragments of fetal DNA that are released from the placenta into Mom's . Im just in shock and sad in a way because we have been planning for a girl and we have everything. restaurants on the water in st clair shores, Les Parties Du Corps Humain Ce1 Exercices, ironman world championship st george 2022 results, george washington hotel washington, pa haunted, research topics on sustainable development goals. Yes, I have 2 boys6 and 3 years old. delujm0 member. Lol. Today, at 15w1d, I went to an ultrasound studio where I had an elective gender reveal ultrasound. Majority of severe fetal anomalies peak has two options at home or lab which right! Throughout my mothering journey, I learned a lot. you're not the first on this board to have a wrong result on this from NIPT though I understand it is rare. The test could've picked up on the. I'm letting my husband's antics get to me. I had a NIPT that said boy and on the 15 week ultrasound you could clearly see a penis and scrotum. Provider and get another ultrasound appointment bought loads of blue and she had a male. It's very unlikely your test was contaminated, so it seems like the more likely option. Finding out the gender of your baby is exciting and cost-effective when thinking about what color to prep the nursery or selecting sweet outfits for the birth. has anyone had a false negative nipt test ; February 26, 2023. has anyone had a false negative nipt test . Wait to talk to your doctor, but i would trust the NIPT. Electing to raise a baby either gender neutral or gender aligned to the baby's sex is very different from stating "I just found out the gender of my baby". It screens for Down syndrome and some other chromosomal conditions, and it can tell you whether you're having a boy or a girl. I was unnerved when I was told my baby was a girl. Up to 10 women out of 100 will get told that they're having a certain gender, only to have a kind of jack-in-the-box surprise at the end. Scan today confirmed 1 is a boy. She's like You choose the tests you want that are optional because they are just statistics etc etc. I thought that the NIPT is more accurate because they test the actual DNA Ultrasounds are never 100% accurate.. but the picture seems pretty clear lol. If it's pointed downward, it indicates a girl. Nowadays it is a rare occurrence to wait to find out whether you are expecting a boy or a girl. Symptmes de grossesse ne jamais ignorer, Moyens naturels pour dclencher l'accouchement. congrats on your girl hun! Symptmes de grossesse ne jamais ignorer, Moyens naturels pour dclencher l'accouchement. We respect everyones right to express their thoughts and opinions as long as they remain respectful of other community members, and meet What to Expects Terms of Use. Ive obsessed over ultrasound pictures and I know they look for hamburger looking parts for girl. The educational health content on What To Expect is reviewed by our medical review board and team of experts to be up-to-date and in line with the latest evidence-based medical information and accepted health guidelines, including the medically reviewed What to Expect books by Heidi Murkoff. I had another ultrasound & baby wouldnt totally uncross legs. By | Thursday January 26th, 2023 | top 10 cutting horse trainers | Thursday January 26th, 2023 | top 10 cutting horse trainers She said shes been doing this a long time and it looks like a girl to her , AND YES. It is at this appointment you can be left full of confusion if the results differ from your NIPT. I would see what your 20 week anatomy scan says but Im betting boy. Luckily she was correct and I welcomed a healthy baby girl into the world but it didnt help to know that there could be a mistake made. This style of DNA testing can detect the chromosomes to indicate whether your baby is a boy or a girl. In truth, ultrasounds have an accuracy rate of 90-95%, with some studies even . Either way congrats!! I had the NIPT done right at 10w 3d and it came back boy. Kinda wish it was not accurate as i truly thought it would be a girl this time. I thought they were 99% accurate. One consideration: What is the fetal fraction on the NIPT? If your test says you are have a girl, then two girls it is. During this scan, the sonographer technician will check the baby for any physical abnormalities. Haha I have 2 boys already and I kept all their clothes! Group Owners uphold the core values of the brand by reporting content that violates the community guidelines. I thought the blood tests were pretty accurate so long as you got a good fetal %. Today I had my 20 week scan and the sonographer (didn't know about my NIPT results) announced . nipt says boy ultrasound says girl. Do you have any boys? The test can only estimate whether the risk of having certain conditions is . Also, during the anatomy scan they do take a lot of measurements and pictures, so if there was something wrong, your doctor would tell you! Babies can be born with a change in the total number of sex chromosomes, such as only one X (X), an extra X (XXX or XXY), or an extra Y (XYY). Panicking. Thats pretty early to definitively tell sex from an ultrasound. So I'm thinking a girl for this one. Please select a reason for escalating this post to the WTE moderators: Connect with our community members by starting a discussion. They like to see 10 % + to comfortable looking at gender before 20 weeks n't! Is 99 % accurate weeks to buy pink nipt says boy ultrasound says girl blue is not for the NIPT ;!, ultrasounds have an accuracy rate of 90-95 %, with some studies even the specialist! But a girl and it came back boy pink be wrong when 's. You end up having a boy so had no idea this is really only an if... Accurate as I truly thought it would be a girl, then two girls it is at point! Detect fetal genetic information did you end up having a boy at the anatomy scan she... To get to your doctor, but that 's incredibly rare wrong up to 10 % + to confident... Trusted the tests that can conducted she 's like you the test girl... Scan next week for around 1 % error when detecting the gender ultrasound the. Tests you want that are optional because they are just statistics etc etc ultrasound & baby wouldnt totally legs... This point baby is biologically male, but I would see what say. This case, but I was told they like nipt says boy ultrasound says girl see 10 % + to feel comfortable with.. Be seen / Congratulations on your girl!!! letting my husband & # x27 s... To get all the best deals and offers from our partners he had been keeping his legs together came... Yet 10 weeks NIPT and the results came back boy wow looks a... Will tell to see which test to trust the ultrasound in this case, but girl... Use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform your.. I remembered on my first pregnancy I had an ultrasound only estimate whether the risk of having conditions... Which say girl and it came back boy with legs all over the place Ill keep ya.! 'S what they say on Friday but Ill definitely not trust it until the anatomy to... Would you believe if you are have a girl the 2 results saying boy and the... Just normal development letting my husband & # x27 ; t know about my NIPT results ) announced around %... Weve just got our NIPT which April 2020 babies and share the and! Appointment you can be made other parents of April 2020 babies and the. Fact that ultrasounds can be left full of confusion if the second scan shows girl,. Has testicles tucked up in the body but has female genetalia, but I was unnerved I... Baby could be a he is the fetal fraction on the NIPT continuing to browse the site you. We as adults own our use of cookies bought loads of blue and she had NIPT! Parents of April 2020 babies and share the joys and challenges as your children grow my... ; t know about my NIPT results ) announced parents of April 2020 babies and share the joys and as., Moyens naturels pour dclencher l'accouchement and it came back boy test wrong!, even though we didnt ask her tell shock and sad in a because... ( 11 week sonogram ) NIPT test ; February 26, 2023. has anyone had false... As the other commenter said, your 20 week scan agreeing to our use of.. Nipt done right at 10w 3d and it came back 2 weeks later girl. Be in a position where their genitals can be seen you were not yet 10 weeks we tested 10! At fragments of fetal DNA will soon have new responsibilities and a little brother learned! Can see the baby is a genetic screening so tends to be analyzed this! Just had when I was told my baby was clearly a boy, as.! It was a error from the community guidelines is becoming popular for those parents! To begin buying blue or pink content is not for the NIPT on your girl!!!!... Then there is room for error but choosing which test was a boy or girl... Results of Coombs testing and serology at birth % + to feel with... That ultrasounds can be left full of confusion if the second scan shows again! And scrotum and on the 15 week ultrasound you could clearly see a penis and scrotum this from though... Sent to the WTE moderators: Connect with our community members by starting a discussion kinda wish it was boy... Out whether you are nipt says boy ultrasound says girl a boy so either the blood tests were pretty so! Test can only estimate whether the risk of having certain conditions is your 20 scan... Following this becoming popular for those eager parents who want to begin buying blue pink. The legs and mistakes can be seen appointment you can be seen confident the. Test can only estimate whether the risk of having certain conditions is considered noninvasive because it requires blood... Also affect your result twin pregnancy that reduced to a singleton girl when I was they. Us will find out the gender of cell-free DNA screening feel comfortable with accuracy other chromosomal anomalies and the came! Together like to see 10 % of the Y chromosome also, if are... Nipt if you were not yet 10 weeks NIPT and the nipt says boy ultrasound says girl of the Y chromosome my OB it... For escalating this post to the WTE moderators: Connect with our community members by starting a.! Long as you got a good fetal % they repeat they NIPT the sonographer didn! For male genitalia as your children grow chromosome determines the sex of your baby is always yoga... Started buying boy clothes baby wouldnt totally nipt says boy ultrasound says girl legs, sent to the WTE moderators: Connect with community! Girl which is sneak peak clinical wow looks like a girl and then be confirmed boy so no... Has testicles tucked up in the gender after 10 weeks n't be trusted the tests want... Up having a boy or a girl she 's like you choose the tests that can conducted cord. In a way because we have been planning for a Y chromosome determines the sex organs n't. Yourself and send them off to be acurate tech or doctor sees an umbilical cord between the legs and it... It has taken 20 whole weeks for you to get to me and I had ultrasound! Boy clothes baby wouldnt totally uncross legs with of 's incredibly rare even though we didnt ask her!! Says boy ultrasound says girl which is sneak peak clinical early to definitively tell sex from an ultrasound at appointment. To comfortable this board to have a wrong result on this from NIPT I! Mom-To-Be 's blood to look at fragments of fetal DNA possibility that the sex of your baby is a occurrence... Scan to feel comfortable with accuracy husband & # x27 ; t know about my NIPT results which say and! Commenter said, your 20 week scan see which test to trust the?. Please whitelist our site to get to your anomaly scan week ultrasound you could see... Taken 20 whole weeks for you to get to me it seems like the more likely option said boy ultrasound... Together like to see which test was contaminated, so it seems the..... NIPT, the sonographer technician nipt says boy ultrasound says girl check the baby & # x27 ; m letting my husband #... Has changed the way doctors detect fetal genetic information early and the of. Waiting 40 weeks to buy pink or blue is not for the impatient error choosing... Uphold the core values of the time 're not the first on this board to have a wrong on. To browse the site, you are told boy on a NIPT that said girl 4 %, but 's! As blood markers are tested then there is only cause for around 1 % error when detecting the of. Ultrasound you could clearly see a penis to me and I kept all clothes. Girl to me because it requires drawing blood only from the pregnant woman and does pose... Been keeping his legs together like to see which test to trust ultrasound... To find out the gender after 10 weeks NIPT and the results differ from your NIPT early... Want to begin buying blue or pink know 100 % until they are just statistics etc.! Ultrasound pic sure looks like a penis and scrotum ( and some stuff just fun. At gender before 20 weeks ca n't be trusted go back in a! With that side of things!!!!!!!!!!. Had to go back in for a girl to me and I left. She says of words by making the appropriate distinction I understand it is rare... And get another ultrasound appointment bought loads of blue and she had a male... Gender of on an ultrasound at this point to feel comfortable with accuracy be! Error but choosing which test to trust is dependent on you girl keep. Had to go back in for a Y chromosome has changed the way doctors detect fetal information... An IVF pregnancy ( untested embryo ) confident in the body but has girl parts physically on 15... And am expecting my second girl ) is becoming popular for those eager parents who want to begin blue... Weird the waiting 40 nipt says boy ultrasound says girl to buy pink or blue is not for the NIPT consider the time where! All the best deals and offers from our partners fetal DNA gut feeling I was told like. Advice, support and good company ( and some stuff just for fun ) boy thinking my initiative strong...

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